Transcript

Jamie: Hello, I'm Jamie Yuenger. And this is 'If You Knew Me', a podcast about the inner lives of women. Every week we walk into the heart and mind of one woman. Each guest can choose to share her real name or stay anonymous. This week we hear from Lydia. That's her pseudonym. Lydia is a mother of three kids. She's debating a big question right now, which is keeping her up at night.

She tried talking about it with a friend, but that didn't work so well. Here she is.

Lydia: I was having dinner with a friend recently to enjoy each other's company since COVID started. and this is, uh, uh, smart, insightful, thoughtful friend.

We both got childcare and met downtown and we were having oysters and wine and it was really wonderful. As we sort of rounded out the second glass of wine and we're getting ever more candid about our lives. I sort of said, you know, I'd be lying. If I said, I didn't want a fourth child or that I didn't sometimes I think about, you know, just one more. And she gave me the most horrified look. She was like, you can't, you can't do it.

That's crazy. Like you just can't do it. Stop, stop thinking like that. You can't do it. It's too much. It's too much for anyone, you know, just, you need to be done. And I was, I was really taken aback. I was really stunned, um, that I guess that anybody could have such strong opinions about my life or my choices.

but it's gotten me thinking it's and it has sort of like pushed me back into my shell of not really feeling safe enough to talk about this yet.

I'm the oldest in my family of origin. And I used to joke with my therapist that I still felt angry that my parents had continued to reproduce. I think that there can be feelings of scarcity in terms of,parental availability and finances and time and space and,

Lydia: You know, not everyone can go to soccer class on Tuesdays because mom can only be one place. you know, there's a cost to having more kids that goes way beyond, you know, oh, the price of college these days is wild and, and other, such practical concerns.

My own experience being the oldest of four children is certainly playing into the fact that I'm considering a fourth child. You know, the part that feels sort of ugly or complicated to me is that I'm, I'm fairly competitive. I, I was, I was raised to be competitive. My parents, they, I think unconsciously really encouraged competition between me and my siblings and in our adulthood that has not gone that well for us. I think that the four of us have not had the relationships as adults that we could have had, because we're all still bogged down and competing for mom's attention and dad's approval.

And I knew even before I had my first that I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to run a household that was based in like beating other people or winning or somehow being the victor. But I also know that sort of practically speaking, the fourth child in my family of origin is one that has been the source of an enormous amount of heartbreak for my family and for my mom in particular.

So I I'm afraid that sometimes I want to have a fourth child because I want to prove that I can, that, that it's been an experience. That's been really painful for my mom. And maybe I could do it. I don't know better. I mean, saying that out loud sounds horrifying and sort of awful, but if I'm feeling generous with myself, maybe it's.

It would be a reparative experience. Like it, it would somehow be soothing to raise a family in the ways that I hoped that my own could have been.

Practically speaking, I have very difficult pregnancies. I have hyperemesis gravidarum when I'm pregnant. And I throw up between one and nine times a day from about seven weeks gestation to when I deliver.

And have found that subsequent pregnancies have gotten more difficult physically for me.

I remember thinking when I was about 30 weeks pregnant of my third. Oh my God. I can never do this again. Like everything hurts. I feel like I'm full term and I still have months left. Like this is chaos. and yet here I am the baby's I dunno 14 months now, I think, and I'm feeling very itchy or very sort of yearning to do it again.

And I sometimes it feels really selfish that there's something despite the vomiting and the associated difficulties, there's something really spectacular and magical and unique about being pregnant. And it's like having the most incredible superpower. You're growing this human who will go forth and have a life of their own.

I think there's something fundamentally hopeful or dare I even say optimistic about having a child, any child, any number of children that you have. I think that having a child is the most hopeful thing you can do.

I think that adding another human onto this planet is not a decision to be taken lightly, but there's some hope that they can help or that they can participate in turning things around. I think idealized version of family suggests that, you know, more kids means, you know, more opportunities for close relationships that can help and support and love each other, you know, their whole life through.

there are days when I think, wow, this is just going to get easier.

Lydia: Like, we're just gonna keep getting more sleep and changing fewer diapers and the sort of practical sides of our lives will just get smoother. And I'm really eager for that. I have professional goals and personal goals, and I'd really like to acquire less stuff that is really hard to do with small, small children.

And I think, wow, there could be such freedom in knowing that our family was complete, that that we've done it, that we have these beautiful children and. My husband and I are in a, actually a better place than we've been in a while as a unit. And we could just keep doing that. Like this could be it. We could know, we could sort of know the factors at play when we thought about our lives moving forward.

I'm a therapist. And I, I talk a lot with my patients about magical thinking, but I think there are also like magical fears. Like I somehow fear that my luck has run out that, you know, how could I ever have been so lucky to have gotten these three delicious babies that I already have?

Like, am I attempting fate to have another one? And that sounds completely irrational.

In my house growing up, there was this scarcity to my mother. We didn't get enough of her. It was like whichever child was in, in crisis was the one that got access to my mom the most freely. And I hated that. I hated that, that I didn't get as much of my mother as I wanted.

No. I went to boarding school and I hated boarding school. It was really a bad experience for me, but what I loved was that my school vacations didn't overlap with my siblings. And so when I was home for breaks, I got so much of my mom, like boarding school was a nightmare, but you know, lunches out with her while the other kids were at school was reason enough to stay.

I mean, it really. I had access to her and attention from her that I'd never had before. And so I, I worry very much about the sort of splitting of my time and attention and splitting it into three is, you know, larger pieces of pie than splitting into four..

I do sometimes fantasize about going back to school, getting my PhD, writing, you know, publishing academic articles as well as novels and all of that becomes ever less possible. every time you have a baby, you reset the clock.

In some ways, the clock of, you know, primary focus being at home, or at least that's been my experience.

I am a therapist and that work has. really highlighted that for me and my husband. It's really important to us that our kids see us as human, as fully human as possible. That, that of course our job is primarily To help them grow into themselves and to figure out who they are and to support them along the way.

And it's also important to protect them, but I think that they need to see that sometimes, you know, mommy and daddy are mad or sad or disappointed, and that's okay too, that the full human experience is expected and encouraged and celebrated on some level.

I was raised in a household where, you know, bad feelings were discouraged. complication was discouraged. Nuance was not a thing. My father used to say, this is a kingdom and I'm a king and that's not our approach we were to. I don't, I don't. I mean, certainly there is an imbalance of power between parents and children, but I want my kids to feel seen and heard for who and how they are. I think,

I tend to think of behavior as communication from them. Not as a reflection on me. So, you know, I have absolutely been the mother at whole foods with the melting down child. Who's like, I'm not, I'm not rushing them out of there. I'm not trying to get them to shut up. I just, you know, we're, we're gonna, we'll get through it.

It'll be fine. Something's going on for them. I hope, my fervent hope is that if we allow them to be who they are with sort of supportive scaffolding conversations along the way, and, with an eye towards safety and development, that they'll know that that's okay. That, that whoever, and however they want to be is, is okay and accepted and loved.

Um, my parents had fairly rigid ideas for what success looked like. And they had really strong assumptions that the four of us would be like them in most ways. And that, has not proven to be the case. And I think that it was a real surprise for them.

It's one they struggled with. Um, they were sort of shocked when things that had been easy for them were hard for us or vice versa. Um, and. I try really hard, not to make assumptions about my kids, to let them show me who they are and then I can figure out ways to support them. And I think that, you know, I don't care if you want to be the president or a surgeon or a plumber or a stay-at-home parent or, someone who writes strange poetry while, you know, keeping a job that pays their bills, whatever it is they want to do. I want them to do it as fully as they can, you know, as, as completely and earnestly and openly as they can..

I'm often seduced by ambition. Like, oh, that's too much. No, it's not too much for me. Um, if it, if it isn't a reaction, if it isn't wholly a reaction to my own family of origin, and if it isn't based on some sort of nebulous idea of competition or ambition, Then I hope whatever decision I make or what is whatever, however, it ends up.

Because again, this is not all a choice. However, it ends up will be something that we can feel joyful about. I think, um, my obstetrician actually told me that her husband had said no to the third child and they only had two. And she told me recently that it took her 20 years, but now she's okay with it. And I found that sort of comforting that, you know, decisions can be made and acceptance can take a long time, no matter how the decision went and that's okay.

You know, it can be a long arc here. It doesn't have to be, uh, doesn't have to be efficient.

Jamie: Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode. If Lydia's story spoke to you, or if you think it would speak to one of your friends, take a moment and share it. If you really feel this show, please rate and review us on apple or on our website, which is ifyouknewme.show

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This podcast is produced by me, Jamie Yuenger, and my husband, Piet Hurkmans. Thanks so much for listening to, 'If You Knew Me'. We'll be back with you next week.

Lydia

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